SCRIPT: Vladimir Pozner Ideas for Tomorrow lecture at the Cleveland Clinic

[6:26] I have an hour, including your Q&A, to try to explain Russia to you – the country that is still not well understood. And, as Toby said, quoting Churchill not quite correctly, ‘cause he said: “Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.” And that pretty much reflects the view that many people still have about Russia. And there’s a whole mythology about who Russians are and what Russia’s like or not like. So let me try to maybe shake some of those myths and give you a general idea of where Russia is coming from and where it’s going.

[7:17] I think it’s important to understand that once upon a time, many-many centuries ago Russia was part of Europe and Russian princesses married French princes and kings, and there was an exchange between the peoples of Russia and what would now be called Western Europe. But that lasted only until the Tartar invasion, which began in the late 12th century – and then for 300 years Russia was cut off from the rest of the world completely. In fact, if there was a real iron curtain, that’s when it existed. It disappeared off the face of what was then the Earth. And then 300 years later when finally Russia liberated itself through off the Tartar yoke and traders from Great Britain, France and so on started coming to Russia, they found the country that they completely could not understand. Everything was different from what they were used to – it was a different country. People looked the same, but acted differently. And that view, to a certain extent, still exists. I have a friend who says, “If we looked different, if our, say, if we were polka-dotted, or striped, or had a different color, then the West would not expect us to be the same as them. But we look exactly like them, and therefore they say ‘Why aren’t you like us?’” Well, it’s because of the very different history. But that goes way back to those times.

[8:52] And ever since then Russia has been a kind of a mystery – sometimes threatening, sometimes not – but never fully accepted in the family of nations, if you will, by Europe and later on by the United States. I think it’s important to understand, if you talk about Russia and the United States – two countries that have pretty much determined the 20th century, to say the least – when you look at how different the two countries really are.. there are people who say “Oh, the Russians and the Americans are very alike.” Nothing could be less true – they’re not alike at all. Think about how America was born: born as a democracy, as a result of the War of Independence, and born on the basis of certain ideals expressed in documents such as the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution at a time when in the world there was no such country – there were kings and emperors and all of that, but this was the first modern democracy. And there was also something called the American Dream, which goes back when, back a long time – an idea being that if were an American, if you were born here – or of you came here – you could be whoever you wanted to be provided you tried hard enough. And then you have Russia – a country that first of all had its own slaves but of its own people. Not imported, not brought over (from Africa, for instance), but the people who turned into slaves. And they lived as slaves until 1861when they were freed. It was a country that had never known democracy, it was a country run by the tsars. And there was a very short period of time – between approximately the 1880s and the beginning of the 20th century – when Russia began to develop a market economy, began to have certain elements of democracy, and that didn’t last very long because of the Revolution of 1917 when the Bolsheviks came to power. There is nothing in common between Russia and the United States in that sense – or between Russians and Americans. The characters are very different, the mindsets are very different.

[11:32] Interestingly enough, there were relations between tsarist Russia and the United States. In fact, the first ambassador to the court of Russia was a man by the name of John Q. Adams who became the fourth [* sixth!!!] President of the United States. And one more ambassador, J. Buchanan, who was the fifteenth president. So there was a certain relationship, not a very close one, but there was one. But after the Revolution, the United States no longer recognized the legitimacy of what was then called the Soviet Union, and that lasted for a long time until 1932 – until president Roosevelt was elected, and that was when the Soviet Union was recognized by the United States.

[12:16] The relationship between the two countries was always one of suspicion, a certain tenseness, and then of course the Soviet system – which was a system basically against all kinds of you would call private ownership, against of what generally might be called capitalism – led to fear of that country. I don’t know to what extent you remember things or know such things as the palmer raids of the 1920s, Sacco and Venzetti, the Red Scare and all of that, but that was part of the reaction to the appearance of the Soviet Union. So there, this relationship well before the Cold War, well before the Iron Curtain was already a very difficult one.

[13:08] For the Soviet Union, for the people living in that country, this experiment of creating a new society, which was supposed to be a society of true equality, where there would be no rich but no poor, where everyone would have the same access to everything – be it medical care or education – it wouldn’t depend on status, on money, it was open to everyone, and that’s the way it would function. This whole idea of a new society was one that caught up people’s minds, and many of them sacrificed for what was a great goal but in a very difficult period. Incidentally, as Toby spoke of, my father being a Soviet spy. He was a Soviet agent in the sense that he helped and worked for Soviet intelligence, as did a lot of foreigners who believed in this great experiment. People like Burgess and McClain in Great Britain who were brilliant Cambridge graduates and members of the UK government, and were in fact working undercover for the Soviet Union. This great idea that many people thought was the future, especially those who’d gone through the great crisis of 1929 and what happened during those times.

[14:34] Most of the people, the overwhelming majority of the people in the Soviet Union believed profoundly in their system. I know that you may find this hard to believe, but it’s fact. There were some who didn’t, there were many who emigrated, but by and large this is a nation of true believers. And, as I said, people sacrificed many-many things for these beliefs. And some people sacrificed their lives. And then one day, or should I say gradually, but finally one day they were told that it’s all been a terrible mistake and, to a certain extent, a lie; that sacrifices had been in vain; that there was no such thing as Soviet socialism existing in Russia, let alone communism (which is a very idealistic, utopian almost idea). And so just imagine a nation of people who had fought for something they profoundly believed in, as I said sacrificed for those things, only to find out at day’s end that it’d been for naught. When I try to explain this on a very personal basis, I say, “Look, imagine that you have profound belief in God and that you live your life accordingly, that that belief is something that steers you, and that holds you up, and that’s what you live for. And then one day it is finally proven scientifically that there is no such thing, that God does not exist.” How does a person react to that? Was it due to you? Was it due to your soul, to your belief system? Well, it’s pretty much the same kind of thing, ‘because the belief was almost a religious one. And so you had many-many people.. you had people who committed suicide, and not a few of them. You had a lot of people who said, “Well, if I was lied through all my life, then I don’t care about anything anymore, I’m only gonna think about myself.” And they became very cynical people.

[16:53] And if you look at Russia today, you will find that the vast majority of people don’t believe in anything. They are afraid to believe, because they were hurt once and they don’t wanna be hurt again. They are much less idealistic than Americans are, although I know Americans consider themselves to be very hard-nosed and pragmatic. Well, I would say the Russians today are much more so, because they only think all they have left to believe now is only themselves, individually – not in a government, not in ideals, but, you now, in me. It’s me, me, and once again me. It creates a very difficult situation, it’s hard for a country to move on when they live in that kind of a situation.

[17:45] Some people think that the disappearance or the demise, if you will, of the Soviet Union was the result of the Cold War and the fact that Ronald Raegan upped the ante and that the Russians simply couldn’t compete financially. I think that’s a mistake. The country was held together by glue, if you will, an epoxy glue – part of which was belief and the other part was fear. And as the belief started to kind of vanish and the fear to evaporate, the bricks no longer held together, and the country just fell apart. That was really what happened. Again, it was the loss of faith I something that people had believed in for nearly seventy years.

[18:39] So that was the past, and what do you have today? Well, you certainly do not have a democratic country, and this has nothing to do – well, it has something to do with Putin, with the president elect, but not all that much.. it’s a country that never had democracy. And it’s very.. you cannot decree democracy. You cannot say, “As of today, we are democratic.” Doesn’t work that way. Democracy as you know, is something that is inside you, it’s the way you live, it’s the way you look at things, it’s the way you relate to things. That is what democracy is about. It’s about your behavior – it’s not about announcing democracy. Most of the Russians have never had, have never lived in a democratic environment. I remember interviewing Boris Yeltsin, when he was not yet president but on his way to becoming president, and I asked him, “Are you a democrat?” And he said, “Of course, not.” He said, “You know what country I was born in and where I’ve lived all my life, you know what party I’ve been a member of all my life – how can I possibly be a democrat? Maybe by talking with democrats, meeting democrats, I may learn something, but I’m not democratic. I don’t know what it is.” And I think that’s pretty much the case for most Russians. I still say that today Russia is still a Soviet country in the sense of the people who are running Russia today, politically and financially, are people who were born in the Soviet Union, went to Soviet schools, were members of what was called young pioneers – which was kind of like the Boy Scouts but with the Soviet ideology, were members of the Young Comsomols, which is the young communist league, were members of the communist party. They grew up that way, they were formed by that system. And they can’t change. You know, these are not lizard that can chop off their tails and grow new ones. So, there’s still very much that atmosphere in the New Russia, as it’s called, the new old Russia – the old new Russia, whatever way you wanna look at it.

[21:03] And very often this is not understood in the West – and Russians react to this. They feel that they’re not getting a fair deal. They will ask, “Oh why is it that a country like China – where there’s absolutely no democracy, where there’s a one party system, where there are no elections, where there is no freedom of speech, where there is is Gulag – why is it that the West and particularly America hardly every criticizes China? And why is it that America criticizes us all the time? Why do we have such a negative image of us in America, while China has a positive image? We have far more democracy than the Chinese now. There is no comparison – at all. So what is it about us that makes Americans negative about our country and about us?” And it’s a not easy question to answer. Because there really is no explanation except one that Americans are as much victims of the Cold War and of the kind of – shall we say – media that they are.. that you are affected by? Because there’s no reason for that kind of double standard, and yet it\s very much there.

[22:35] I think that there is a lack of patience. People expect Russia to change overnight, and that doesn’t happen. It’s going to take a couple of generations for the country to become a different kind of country. It’s going to take time for those who were never born and never knew the Soviet system for them to come to power, for them to be elected, for them to become the driving force before that country really changes. It’s going to be a while. The country only changed 20 years ago – and mind you, it was a sea change. This is a change of system, this could have been a civil war, it could have been huge bloodshed – and yet it happened peacefully, by and large. And again, these are things that I think are not really looked at seriously.

[23:33] Today you see a growing civil society in Russia. Naturally, you’ve read about the manifestations, the protests that were held in December, January, and February in Russia. This is new. This never happened before. Russians didn’t go out into the street to voice their discontent with what was going on. This is a democratic manifestation. That’s what happens in a democracy, and that never happened before. The way it was portrayed here  by many was that this was the Arab Spring in Russia, and yet there is nothing in common between the Arab countries and Russia and between the situation. It’s a completely different kind of situation. And yet there were pretty well-known Americans, say, like senator McCain who said that, you know, ‘here we go.’ Or recently Mr. Romney and his statement about Russia being the number one geopolitical foe of the United States. Now, when this comes back to Russia, Russians say, “You know, what’s going on here? Is this the reset button or what is this?” Russians have as much of a problem with Americans as, I guess, Americans have with Russians. And, I mean, equal status, if you will.

[25:05] It would be a good idea if more and more Americans could travel to Russia and vice versa. And the reason I keep underlying this is not because I’m a citizen of both countries, it’s because I feel very strongly that these two countries have a role to play, especially considering China. I don’t know to what extent you share my view, but I happen to believe that China is a very dangerous country today and becoming more and more dangerous. And I do believe that together Russia and the United States are the only force that could kind of stave off a very aggressive China that believes that its time has now come. It sees the United States as a power that is going downhill and a Russia as a power that is no longer a power. And you can see that in the policies. These are some of the things that I think should be thought about very carefully.

[26:14] There once was a.. Probably the greatest political jokes were the ones told by Soviets. They came up with these great stories about themselves. And there was one about an international conference that was held to determine the ethnicity of Adam and Eve, because the Bible has nothing to say about that. And the French delegate got up and he said, “Clearly they had to be French, because who but a French woman would give up paradise for love?” And the British delegate said, “I respect my French colleague, but clearly they were British, and more exactly English, because only an English gentleman would give up paradise for his lady?” And the Soviet delegate said, “This is bourgeois beliefs, I mean, they were Soviet, we know this. And we have the proof – in fact, we have triple proof.  First of all, they only had one apply for the two of them. Secondly, they had no clothing to speak of. And third and most important – they believed they were living in paradise.” As the Russians say, there’s always a bit of truth in every joke and the fact and the matter is that for a long time these people did believe they were living in paradise. They did believe that they had the best of all things, that they had the best system. It’s this belief that they lost, but it’s still sitting there to a certain extent. There’s still a certain degree of nostalgia for something that once upon a time promised so much, although it turned out to be a nightmare. But the promise originally was there. So you’re dealing with a complex people today and a very complex issue – and a very proud people.

[28:27] And perhaps I think I should also tell you about the fact that during the Soviet times, there was no anti-Americanism at the grassroots level – a very little of it. Russians were not anti-American, there was anti-American government, anti-American policy, but not anti-American people. And that’s changed. Today the average Russian is certainly far more anti-American than he was during the bad times, what people called the communist times, although there really was no communism, but that’s a different question. And the reason is that back then, as people see it today, the Soviet Union was a real power and the rest of the world had to count with the desires and with the fact that the Soviet Union existed. Once it disappeared, once it broke down, the world – and especially the United States – kind of said, “Well, now they are no longer, they are no longer any interest, they don’t play any more roles, so we can ignore them – which is precisely what happened. – when the whole idea of bombing Yugoslavia, and Russia said ‘no,’ and the United States said, “You know, forget them.” There’s been a sense of no longer being respected, of lost dignity. [?appeared?] the 800-pound gorilla throwing its weight around and not paying any attention to us. That has led to a much greater degree of anti-Americanism than ever existed before. And one of the reasons for Mr. Putin’s popularity in Russia and one of the reasons why he was elected once, twice, and now a third time is because he turned the country around , brought it back to its feet after Yeltsin, and has kind of made the rest of the world pay attention to Russia once again. In other words, he’s giving back this sense of dignity and of pride that is very much part of the Russian psyche. So again, these are all things that should be considered if, of course, there’s any interest at all in the country.

[30:51] I’ve always tried to, you know – it took me a long time to understand or to think or to believe that I understand Russia, at least as far as I can – but what I find lacking, and I find that dangerous, is no real curiosity, and a willingness to judge immediately, to judge, almost a knee-jerk reaction in everything Russian. The minute there’s something written about Russia, as a rule, it’s negative and it’s a knee-jerk reaction to something happening in Russia. So anyway, I thought that I would just dwell on that a little bit, and I hope that you’re going to have questions for me, because I always feel that it’s more important to answer your concrete curiosity than for me to be here like in an opera singing an area – don’t wanna do that. So I’m hoping you’ll have questions.

[31:53] One last thing that I think is important to say that Russia is changing today very rapidly. The people who voted this time around for Putin – and I have a breakdown in those figures, ‘cause they were looked at carefully – these were people who are over 55 years of age, these are people with a high school education at most, these are people of low income, and these are people living in small towns. And women. Believe it or not. Putin turns out to be very much popular with Russian women: very macho, there were pictures of him, maybe you’ve seen them, on horseback, naked torso, lot of muscle there, plus the fact that he has some power, which they say is very attractive – I don’t know about that, I couldn’t judge.

[32:54] There’s no glass here, right? So I can drink it straight from the bottle – is that the way it works? And so, these Russians, my God…

[33:08] This is a group that is going to grow smaller. The people who voted against Putin r for other people are younger, under 35, making good living, upwardly mobile, with a university education. This is a growing group. The dynamic, therefore, is that 6 years from, when the next presidential elections are held, Putin will no longer have this advantage. So there are changes happening, changes that are evident to those living in the country, and I guess to students of Russia, but not evident to everybody. There could be.. There’s a possibility that Putin might even step down before that, but that’s somewhere in the realm of predictions that I don’t like to make. It’s a country of a 142 million people, 51 million of which are actively on Internet communication with each other. That’s number one in Europe, slightly less in the United States, but it’s enormous number. Again, it’s people talking to each other, it’s people exchanging views and ideas. And the country where there are limitations on the media, it’s a cynical kind of situation. The government’s view is: the smaller your audience, the greater freedom you have. So if it’s a newspaper that has an audience of 200,000, they can write whatever they want, nobody cares. But if it’s what they call network television – or federal channels they call them in Russia – that have an audience of, say, 30-40-50-60 million people, there there are limitations imposed. And it’s because of these limitations – it’s a strange thing – that people now have turned to the Internet. So it would seem to be a negative, but then has a positive to it, because now people are talking to each other a lot more, and this new – how should I put it? – this new vista of exchanged opinion is playing a very big role today in Russia, and I must say that the Russian government is not trying to limit the Internet, as they’ve done in China, as you know.

[35:15] So, am I optimistic? Cautiously. And on the.. Long-term optimistic. It’s not gonna happen tomorrow, it’s going to continue to take time before Russia changes to the extent where people will not say, “Well, they’re different than we are.” They’ll say they are different just like the French are different or the Germans are different – but it’s a different kind of different. Where they will be accepted pretty much as everyone else. Give it a couple of generations. I realize that that’s a.. maybe somewhat of a tough call, but there’s no other way to go. A country cannot change faster than it can: don’t shoot the pianist, he’s doing the best he can. That’s pretty much my advice. What’s more, he can shoot back, and you don’t want that to happen. So, basically that’s it. I hope this has been instructive, at least to a certain point, and I’ll be happy to answer your questions if you have them. Thank you. [36:21]

Total: 30 min speech; 4,165 words.

Questions and Answers

[36:36] Question: Mr. Pozner, you know, I think one of Russia’s greatest strengths, if not its greatest strength, is its natural resources. Do you think that the vast wealth of resources could speed up democracy or slow it down?

Pozner: Well, right now I think those great natural resources are slowing it down. I think that kind of wealth is not conducive to looking for innovation, for diversification. I think it’s almost like a drug. It’s like you’re sitting.. It’s like you’re shooting gas and oil into your system, because it brings back huge money. It’s this cushion—it’s a very comfortable situation where you’re raking in money without really making much of an effort. And I don’t think it helps the development of the country. It’s clear that, you know, Russia cannot compete with the rest of the world in any real area of production except natural resources. To begin with, natural resources are finite, at some point there won’t be any more of them, and secondly, a country.. I mean, you find yourself then in the situation somewhat akin to some Arab countries, which is a very retarded kind of society. So in my opinion, no, it does not help at all. And one of the ideas is that real efforts have to be made to diversify the economy.

[38:10] Question: The question I have is, our biggest problem right today is Iran, and I don’t think Russia is helping us in solving that problem. In fact, you’ve made it more difficult for us. Do you agree with that comment or not?

Pozner: Well, I don’t agree that Iran is your problem. I mean, it’s not a specifically American problem.

Man: But we think so.

Pozner: Frankly, frankly, I think it’s much more of an Israeli problem, seriously speaking.

Man: Yeah, but we’re right there.

Pozner: OK, fine. You know, I recently, about a year ago I was in Iran. There was an outside chance I could interview President Ahmadinejad, and I wanted to—I’m interested in this gentleman. And so, I decided to go there as a tourist and just travel around and take a look at this country. I know, you know, I have a certain knowledge of Ancient Persia, but I don’t really know anything about Iran. And I met a lot of people who really don’t like the leadership, really not. And these were the people whose friends were in jail and things like that. When I asked them, “Do you think your leadership is trying to create nuclear weapons?” And all of them, at different points, said, “We don’t know, but we certainly hope so.” And I said, “But why?” And the answer was, “Look, all of the countries surrounding us have nuclear weapons: India has them, Pakistan has them, you Russians have them, the Israelis have them—why can’t we have them?” And it’s a tough question to answer. I would have thought that if the President of Iran came out and said so openly, “Yes, we do, we want to, and here’s why,” it might have been more intelligent than saying “We don’t” when in fact actually everyone believes that they do. Now, that’s on the one hand, just to give you that. The Russians now. There are such things as geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union used to have a lot of sway in that part of the world (Iran, Iraq; Iran not being the Arab world as you know—and then the Arab world). After the end of the Soviet Union, after all the turmoil, Russia lost its influence. It’s trying to get it back, which is one of the reasons why I think it has a totally mistaken policy vis-à-vis Syria, a wrong policy vis-à-vis Iran. But this has to do with the game of politics. It has nothing to do with—how should I put this—with any great moral ideals. I don’t believe that most countries practice a certain policy because of morals. What they’re looking at is interest, geopolitics. I fear very much that eventually someone’s gonna bomb Iran. And if you think that that’s going to help, I think it’s a mistake. Look what happened in Iraq. Have things gotten better in Iraq as a result of what happened there? More people are killed every day in Iraq today than in the time of that terrible dictator. Have things gotten much better in Afghanistan? We all know that they haven’t. This idea of a military solution to a problem that is not military just doesn’t seem to work. I can’t say I agree with the policies of Russia vis-à-vis those countries—incidentally, something I would not have been able to say not that long ago. But I don’t think you should look at it as the way you’ve put it, that this is an American problem and you Russians are not helping us with our American problem. That shouldn’t be the way to look at it. I don’t think.

Man: Well, but we are the world’s leader. Maybe you don’t accept that.

Pozner: In what sense are you the world’s leaders?

Man: I’m sorry?

Pozner: In what sense? I mean, medically speaking or economically speaking or what?

Man: Wherever there are problems in the world, we’re locked to do something about it so that no war occurs and that we can resolve those things as prob(?) in a sensible way. And that’s what I mean by the leadership. It seems to me that what we’re leading up to is when Iran get an air bomb, there will be all kinds of problems in the Mediterranean area, as you well know. And that’s the issue I really raised the question about.

Pozner: Well, you know.. I agree.. Let me put it this way: let’s agree to disagree, because I don’t think that today America is offering the same kind of leadership that it once upon a time did. I don’t think American leadership is seen that way anymore both by Europe and not only in Europe. I think, things have changed not for the best, and I believe it’s a result of certain mistaken policies. And I don’t think Americans should see themselves as world’s leaders, because that gives an impression of being somehow superior to the rest. I don’t think there is such a thing as a superior country. There are more powerful and less powerful countries. China is becoming one of the most and may become the most powerful country, but with the system that is has, I would not accept that it’s being the leader. It’s very strong, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a leader. I think leadership has more to do with morality, with justice, and so on. And I don’t believe today—it’s a personal thing—that you’re totally right when you say that America is the world’s leader in that sense. Now, you know, you may disagree, but that’s fine.

[44:11] Question: Hi Mr. Pozner, thank you for being here today. It’s an honor and a privilege to listen to you in person. You are an accomplished individual, a world traveler, hold numerous passports. I myself, you know, hold a lucky Belarusian passport. But I just wanna ask you: considering socio-economic and political aspect of the current [modern] world, if you had to do it all over again and once again you were 25 years old, what country would you want to begin your profession in and what field of profession would you pursue?

Pozner: That’s an easy question. The answer is I don’t know. No, frankly, this kind of.. when you start talking about.. who knows how things.. how my life would have changed, and 25 years ago how could I know what would happen later? I don’t think anyone can answer those questions, not really. I think I’ve been very lucky in a certain sense, because it’s given me experience that you rarely get, but it’s also a tradeoff because I’ve moved around so much that I don’t have the same kind of roots and the feeling of belonging the way most people have, which is something I sometimes envy. So I don’t think I can answer your question, honestly. I know that I’d want to be a journalist anyway, which is something I didn’t know I wanted to be, I just totally accidentally fell into that. I’ve been very lucky I guess, again. So journalist—yes, as to where I wanted to.. well you know I would have liked to have lived in Ancient Greece.

[46:07] Question: I am one of Russian women who hate Putin, I just want to clear. He is a devil and he allows bureaucrats to steal a lot of money in exchange to loyalty to him. This is my opinion and many-many other friends and people. But my question is. I love your program. I always watch. You are the best journalist in Russia. And you said that you have a list of people you not allowed to invite to take interview. The question is, do you still have this list and can you show up who are those people—you are in America. Thank you.

Pozner: OK, alright, I got the question. I don’t like Putin either, but that has nothing to do with that. Let me explain this, because this is clearly a person who knows certain things that you don’t know because follows the Russian press or whatever. When I started doing the show that I’m doing now which is called ‘Pozner”—it’s a one-on-one interview. Incidentally, I am not the Russian Larry King. So, I don’t work for Channel One, which is probably the largest Russian network. I produce the show and it’s bought by the network. So when I proposed it to the general manager, I said, “Look, there are probably some people (this is three and a half years ago) that you can’t have on the air. The government does not want them (the government controls this particular network), tell me who they are. I guess, I pretty much know but, you know, tell me. And either I will say OK, I agree to this and then I’ll do the show, or I’ll say I don’t agree and there won’t be any show. But either way, if I agree, I don’t want you adding people to those names.” And so he gave me seven names—which I’m not going to give you, because it was a private personal conversation and this is not for public knowledge—and I said, OK. Those were the people who have still not been on the air on any of the major television networks. They’ve been on taped but they’ve not been on live, and there’s a big difference between taped and live, because when it’s live you can’t control it and when it’s taped you can cut. So yes, there are limitations. But let me tell you a story. Several years ago when I came to the United States, I was invited by Phil Donahue back in 1991, to start doing a show, which was called “Pozner and Donahue” for a CNBC. And when I asked Phil, who’s now become a very close friend, I said, “Phil, why is it ‘Pozner and Donahue’? I mean, you are the guy who’s known in the United States. Shouldn’t it be ‘Donahue and Pozner’?” And he said, “Well, Vladimir, if it bombs, it should better be ‘Pozner and Donahue’.” Which is very nice, but let me finish this story. At a certain point, the president of CNBC—we got a new president by the name of Roger Ailes, who you may have heard of. And when time came to renew our contract, Roger called us in and he said, “You guys are liberal, you are too liberal, you don’t have enough conservative guests on your show. We’ll have a contract provided there’s a clause that says you must tell us what you’re going to talk about and who you invite. And we can say yes or no.” United States of America, CNBC. I said, “Mr. Ailes, that’s censorship.” And he said, and this is a direct quote, “I don’t give a rat’s ass what you call it. That’s the way it’s going to be.” I said, “No, it’s not, I’m not gonna do it.” And the show was cancelled. So when you talk to me about these things, about.. alright there are people I can’t invite on the air, true. And I lost my job in the United States because I wouldn’t agree to have someone else tell me who to invite on the air. This is not just a Russian problem, believe me.

[50:55] Question: We were in beautiful downtown Moscow three weeks before the Berlin Wall came down. And the fear of the citizens and the control of the central government was palpable in everything that you ran into. What would that be like today?

Pozner: Well, you were there at the time when you couldn’t even compare it to the fear that existed before. When you got there shortly before the Berlin Wall came down, which is November of 1989, there had already been nearly four years of perestroika and glasnost under Gorbachev, people were much freer than they were before there was far less fear; and yet you as an American felt fear, which just goes to show how little you actually knew about what it was really like when if you talk to a foreigner you could be taken off the street. People were really afraid even to walk up to a foreigner, let alone talk to him. Today itss—you know, how can I put this—it’s like walking in the streets of New York. Moscow is very much like New York, just as pushy, aggressive, busy, and all of that. And you can.. You know, it’s the New Yorker when – I love this story of a guy from Indiana, I think, who comes to Manhattan and he stops a New Yorker and he says, “Excuse me, do you know where the Empire State building is?” The guy says, “Yeah, I know” and he keeps on going. That’s pretty much what you’ll get in Moscow nowadays.

[52:16] Question: I think we can all agree that America’s going through an almost unprecedented period of self-questioning economically, politically, and of course with our healthcare. To what degree are Russians, not only the leaders but the people of Russia, aware of these problems in America? What kind of coverage is this getting in Russia?

Pozner: Zero. Zero. This is not something that Russians are interested in. Look, it’s just.. how interested are Americans in Russian healthcare? I mean, generally speaking. They are not interested at all. Americans are interested in what’s happening in their country first and foremost and then in countries that they find threatening such as Iran. Otherwise, they are not interested. By and large. Same thing in Russia. Russians are interested in what’s happening in their country first and foremost, and then to a much lesser degree to what’s happening in other countries. And then if you see the coverage, the coverage of course is I would say one-sided. They all know about what happened the other day when seven kids were shot.. that kind of thing is reported, because it’s part of the picture of America that Russians get. That, for instance, because of guns that are available here people are killed and all of that. The negative stuff is what gets out. But the fact that the whole healthcare issue is a very complex one and most Russian don’t know about it and couldn’t care less. You know, who cares about whether Americans have access or don’t have access? It can only be used politically to say, “See, they don’t have it and we do,” that kind of thing. It doesn’t have a whole lot of coverage, really not. We are pretty ignorant of each other, we have ideas: Americans are … – and then, you know. And vice versa, Russian are… – and then you get this general picture. I remember when I was doing this documentary on the United States, which incidentally brought me to Cleveland and I did a piece on the Cleveland Clinic, just part of that, one of the questions we asked everybody in America as we traveled through the country was “Please, complete this sentence for me: To me being an American means…” And we were down in the place called Miami, Oklahoma, believe me, this is not Miami—this is ooouh!—it’s a tiny little nutty(nothing?) of a town. We were tanking over the gas station, and this truck drives up with about six young men who are roofers, they make roofs, and so they saw us with the cameras, so I said to one of them, “Alright, answer this question for me: To me being an American means…” The guy is about 20 years old says, “Well, to me it’s better than being a Mexican.”

[56:22] Question: Hello, Mr. Pozner. In Russia you American guy, in America you Russian. Who are you and what is your first language?

Pozner: Well, my first language is French. I was born in France of a French mother, so my first language and the only language we were allowed to speak at home was always French. I’m a mix. I’m certainly not.. I don’t feel Russian, I did.. you know.. When I arrived in Russia, I was 19 years old—it’s a bit late in the day to become part of something in the sense of emotionally becoming part of it, not rationally. In New York, I was the all-American kid from New York City, I had a paper route, Joe DiMaggio was my number one guy. You know who Joe DiMaggio was? When my book came out “Parting with Illusions,” I was on a book tour, and eventually got to San Francisco (this is 1990), and I got a phone call. A woman says, “Mr. Pozner, we’d like to invite you over for dinner.” And I said, “I’m sorry, I’m completely booked, I just can’t.” “Oh but Mr. Pozner, Joe DiMaggio’s gonna be there.” Well.. I thought, the President of the United States invites me, forget it. Joe DiMaggio. So I’d go over there and these very snobbish fit people, and there’s no Joe DiMaggio. So I figured, that’s it, I’ve been had(?), how do I get out of here? As I’m figuring the retreat, the door opens and in walks the Yankee Clipper—silvery gray hair, graceful. And he walks up to me, he sticks out his hand and he says, “Joe DiMaggio.” And I said, [sounds]. And I’m seven years old all over again, you know. And he says, “I brought you something.” And he puts his hand in the pocket and he takes out a baseball and he gives it to me. And on it it says “For Vadimir Pozner, a man I’ve always wanted to meet.” That’s it. My life is done. So I guess, that should answer your question up to a point.

[58:09] Question: Hi, I was just wondering what you think the future of, like, the youth influence with the protests and everything and books like Masha Gessen’s “The Man Without a Face” exposing picture ups(?) like you were talking about the manliness going beyond the horse and coming up with ancient artifacts perfectly polished and things like that?

Pozner: Yeah, very good question. Well, you know, to do that kind of thing, in my opinion at least—there were pictures of Mr. Putin who had so supposedly.. he dived somewhere and he brought up ancient Greek artifacts and stuff—it’s just amazing—to do this and to have it published, it really means that you have no respect for the people out there, I mean, you can—one of my old-time favorite—you can fool some of the people most of the time and most of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people [all of the time]. Well, this is.. I can fool all of the people all of the time – that’s what he’s saying. And up to a certain point it works. Up to a certain point. I think that that’s basically pretty much over with, I think that these demonstrations have shown that people are tired with the lies, and with the dishonesty, and with not being respected. The people who are protesting, by the way.. Usually these kind of protests are about not having enough money, ‘we need jobs,’ ‘we need homes’—it’s about living conditions. But these protests have not been about living conditions, ‘cause the people who have been protesting are those who live well. It’s people who have finally been able to stand up straight instead of thinking every minute about ‘Where do I get my daily bread?’ and look around and say, “I don’t like this.” It’s people who’ve traveled a lot, who’ve been to Europe, who’ve been to United States, who’ve seen other kinds of societies and who say ‘no-no-no.’ This is.. It’s for the first time, if you will, people saying “This is my country and I wanna change it.” That’s why I feel more optimistic. There are people who—how should I put this—Russians who criticize Russia in a way that would make you think that it’s hopeless. Well, first of all nothing is hopeless. And that’s not the way I look at things. I can see a certain development that I think is very positive. And certainly Putin being a man who definitely wants to go down to history as a positive figure. He wants future generations, future Russians in schools reading textbooks that say, “Vladimir Pozn.. Vladimir Putin”—excuse me.. [laugh] that was a Freudian slip of the tongue, wasn’t it?—“was a great ta-da da-da” and so on. I think, he’s very serious about that and being a pragmatist, not an ideologue at all. I believe we’ll see changes in the way he acts as President. But time will show, I really don’t like to predict, I used to have a Chrystal ball when I was a young man and I could predict everything, but I’ve lost it, so I’m sorry.

[1:01:46] Are there any more questions? There seem.. to be.. a conference up there, no? Ok, thank you.

Total: 25 min, 3,749 words.